Obama Wants 12 Million Illegals to Get Citizenship

[Kaninen]

OK. Let me just tone down my superior european attitude for a moment and see if I can clarify why I find your statements so chocking. I'm all for respecting the law and of course breaking it MUST have consequences.

Originally Posted by Fingulfin

What you are saying is that if I catch a man breaking and entering, I should apologize for startling him, offer to make him a sandwich and give him a band aid for the cut he got when breaking my bathroom window. After all, Americans are supposed to be hospitable right?

Using this as example what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's a good approach looking at why people behave in a certain way. Instead of pointing a finger at a burglar and label him as a bad person, look at why he's breaking and entering in the first place. Maybe you have something he needs, but can't obtain in another way. Maybe he's stuck in an addiction that he needs to fund. Maybe it's the only way he can support his family because he can't find a job.
Perhaps if we can find answers to those questions we can find a way where he doesn't have to steal.
Simply labelling around 25 million people (or however many it's assessed you have) as bad, greedy people leaching on your "glorious" social benefits makes my ass twitch.

Besides that there's the fact that to a certain extent your entire infrastructure is dependant on the work done by illegal immigrants. Who else would you get to harvest your produce, build your homes etc. etc. Their below average wages and zero employment benefits cuts costs for companies, which in the end benefits you as a consumer.
Agreed, you shouldn't reward people for breaking the law. But they're here now, to a large part because you let them get in. Deal with that and prevent it from happening in the future instead of pointing your privileged fingers at the immigrants and expect them to go away all by themselves.

You live country that people die trying to get to and you should be damn proud of that.
/
There. I'll go back to being a crosseyed european snob again now.

[wtf.panda]

Originally Posted by Ashen

You mean the country they got in illegally, get full medical services and handouts, free education, and don't pay taxes, yeah they're the winners all the way around. If they're poor and living 20 of them to a two bedroom home it's because they send all their money home across the boarder so the rest of their 40 siblings can live in splendor. Oh, and don't think for a minute they're poor. Many of them make well into the middle class of wages. The poor you speak of tend more likely to be the trailer ghetto trash crack whores who get everything for free. Then vomit their issues of "poor me, look what I did to myself!" onto the rest of society.

Many of them are not like that. Many of them are honest people that work hard 9-5 lives and live just like the rest of us. Sure there are plenty that are described as above, but there are plenty of Americans that are exactly the same way. However, I do think that them coming over illegally is a problem.

Besides that there's the fact that to a certain extent your entire infrastructure is dependant on the work done by illegal immigrants. Who else would you get to harvest your produce, build your homes etc. etc. Their below average wages and zero employment benefits cuts costs for companies, which in the end benefits you as a consumer.
Agreed, you shouldn't reward people for breaking the law. But they're here now, to a large part because you let them get in. Deal with that and prevent it from happening in the future instead of pointing your privileged fingers at the immigrants and expect them to go away all by themselves.

You live country that people die trying to get to and you should be damn proud of that.

Come on now Kaninen, you pretending to know about immigration here is the same as Fingulfin trying to give you a detailed description on the vagina. You may see/read a lot of stuff about it from CNN but that doesn't mean you understand the problem, and yes, it is a problem.


We are proud that people die trying to get into our country. I am 100% fine that people immigrate legally, bring as many as you can. However, illegal immigration is a different story, people are turned down for a reason. They are free of the rules that we have here, they don't pay taxes, they don't pay for insurance, they don't pay for health care, they don't pay for the soldiers dieing on the battlefield that keeps them living free lives, and thats not fair. Our constitution states that "All men are created equal" meaning that NO ONE is above the rules, and with the current state of America, illegal immigrants are above the rules.

[Kaninen]

You know, you can be a real patronizing asshole sometimes, Panda.

Considering you're so confident that I don't understand the problem I would've expected you to be able to a lot better job at explaining why I'm wrong. Yet, I don't see a single statement in your post that disproves the points I was making.
Your points are valid, for sure, I just don't see how they're relevant to the issues I adressed.

[TheBeardedClam]

Cut off all of their feet. Let's get medieval.

[Krewsader]

Originally Posted by Kaninen

... But they're here now, to a large part because you let them get in. Deal with that and prevent it from happening in the future instead of pointing your privileged fingers at the immigrants and expect them to go away all by themselves.

Because people would bitch and complain if we would shoot them. What else you want us to do?

[painmaker]

Originally Posted by Krewsader

Because people would bitch and complain if we would shoot them. What else you want us to do?

Shoot the others too so they cant complain?

[KnifeHeavy]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo - At least EU has red light districts

[Panchovillaa]

Originally Posted by Timmy_theHat

No one can catch me! I am faster than 10 fast men!

I was out of breath for about 24 seconds from laughing.


On a more serious note, Illegal immigration is a huge problem to primarily the usa and also mexico and the other countries from which people immigrate from illegally. I believe that people primarily choose to cross the border because they hope that whatever they find in the usa is better than what they had back at home. And what they had back at home is bad because of corruption in the mexican government. mexico has many natural resources but they are used primarily for profiting that can be made if they export it to other countries. mexico also has a huge gap between the lower class middle and high class in financial and medical, diet, everything, except for maybe really bad air quality in some of the larger cities but thats besides the point. To be honest I don't think there is a straightforward solution to the problem. Leaders and presidents of both countries have tried to do something about it, even solo governors and major border city mayors have gotten involved, but the problem is too big. If illegal immigration completely stopped tommorow, it still wouldn't be solved, there would still be some people here wrecking havoc and acting disorderly, while others are actively pursuing to become naturalized citizens/legal residents. My grandma waited like 6 years to get her citizenship, she had to memorize all sorts of facts about the U.S. , presidents, dates, number of states, number of stars and stripes, etc. Sadly she passed away 2 months before it arrived in the mail.

[n00bf00d]

^ Now that's a sad story. I'm sorry to hear that pancho.

Illegal immigration (in any country: look at what's happening in Holland) is primarily the result of disparate economic situations. The only true solution when it comes to illegal immigration is to improve the economic situation in the country the immigrants are coming from.

[Fingulfin]

Originally Posted by Kaninen

Using this as example what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's a good approach looking at why people behave in a certain way. Instead of pointing a finger at a burglar and label him as a bad person, look at why he's breaking and entering in the first place. Maybe you have something he needs, but can't obtain in another way. Maybe he's stuck in an addiction that he needs to fund. Maybe it's the only way he can support his family because he can't find a job.
Perhaps if we can find answers to those questions we can find a way where he doesn't have to steal.
Simply labelling around 25 million people (or however many it's assessed you have) as bad, greedy people leaching on your "glorious" social benefits makes my ass twitch.

Want me to ramp up the example for you? Say you come home and find someone breaking and entering. He sees you, and shoots you and you die. The police come, the man gets arrested and goes to court. Instead of looking at the raw facts (This man SHOT another man), the court spends MONTHS mulling over why this man shot you. Maybe he was scared, maybe he was hungry and couldn't afford a meal... Maybe his family is hungry and he is doing this to support them... He got scared when he saw you open the door, and his finger slipped on the trigger.

HOWEVER, the FACT remains that he KILLED another human. Regardless of WHY he did it, the law is the law and will remain the law. Yes, this is a much more serious crime, however the PRINCIPLE is the same. These people BROKE INTERNATIONAL LAW to get into this country, and are continually breaking laws to avoid taxation, detection and, ultimately, deportation.

Look at where the American economy is today. No, it's current position is most definitely not 100% illegal immigrant's faults, however you cannot deny that they had no small part in it.

25 Million people in this country are greedy, law breaking morons leeching upon the USAs social benefits. They are mooching off the system, they are injuring the economy and 1 group of people suffers from it... The middle class American citizen. The sheer thought of it makes me shudder.

[Timmy_theHat]

I Am The Justice, Not You.

[n00bf00d]

i can haz Immigration Reform.

[KnifeHeavy]

Clearly Fing that was not a nice description of a vagina

[Kaninen]

Originally Posted by Fingulfin

Want me to ramp up the example for you?

I totally understand your point that the principle is the same. Breaking the law should have the exact same consequences, regardless if why it was broken. In principle. However, when it comes to illegal immigration my point is that I consider it to be way too complicated to be solved so simply, or generalized to such a degree as you do.

25 Million people in this country are greedy, law breaking morons leeching upon the USAs social benefits.

Sometimes you have to take mutual responsibility for the effects of certain situations. In this case it is my opinion that the us government has an equal responsibility along with the immigrants themselves. The flow of illegals has been steadily increasing for a long time, yet the government has done very little to stop it. You have let yourselves become dependent, to a certain degree, of the work done by the immigrants.
Besides the moral aspects of mutual responsibility as I see them, there's the actual practical aspect of all this. How would you go about sending away 25 million people, that aren't registrered anywhere!? Literally moving them would be a daunting task in itself. That's provided you could even locate them all. And even if you could actually find everyone one of them, put them in busses and airplanes and send them home (with the costs associated with that), what happens to your economy when small companies and businesses are suddenly missing 50 million hands? Maybe that might even stimulate your economy, I don't know, I'm no financial expert, I'm just saying that there are tons of aspects to this that need to be thought through before facing the consequences of the "you break the law you go home" approach.

[Timmy_theHat]

You have finally arrived all the way here!